From - Tue Nov 27 18:24:58 2001 Message-ID: <3C03C6BF.F0914AB2@clark.net> Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2001 12:00:47 -0500 From: Tiny Human Ferret Reply-To: klaatu@clark.net Organization: copyright 2001 all rights reserved -- non-UseNet transmission prohibited. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.17 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.non.racism,alt.talk.twentysomething,soc.culture.african.american,alt.politics.immigration,alt.activism.children Subject: Re: Combatting Racism References: <281ovtcidc7mmo5qemhtrk1jl6ctvhs2d1@4ax.com> <2k6uvt0b6903kkh8b421tj9vf2ve0qfv1m@4ax.com> <3BFFD261.C7EC74B7@clark.net> <2YRL7.127507$WW.7930631@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net> <3C02E9AE.CE9B355F@clark.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.205.1.226 X-Trace: vienna7.his.com 1006880449 65.205.1.226 (27 Nov 2001 12:00:49 -0500) Lines: 80 X-Authenticated-User: tjh22isp Path: vienna7.his.com Xref: vienna7.his.com alt.non.racism:25952 alt.talk.twentysomething:273 soc.culture.african.american:626345 alt.politics.immigration:188489 alt.activism.children:108261 Mark Steirer wrote: > > Tiny Human Ferret wrote in message > news:3C02E9AE.CE9B355F@clark.net... > > Timothy Murphy wrote: > > > > > > "Mark Steirer" wrote in message > > > news:NXYL7.127954$WW.7972693@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > > > > > > > > toto wrote in message > > > > > > > > > And, for the record, where your own parents immigrants? > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > > > > Somebody in your family tree was an immigrant. > > > > > > Can you provide proof that they entered the country legally? > > > > You know what? It doesn't matter if he can or not, if he was born here. > > > > US Constitution Amendment 14 Section 1. > > > > HAND, > > Thanks, but I'm not sure that's the proper interpretation. The pertinent > clause says "All persons born or naturalized in the United States...ARE > citizens of the United States...." (Emphasis added.) Contrast that with > the use of the auxiliary "shall" in virtually every other clause of the 14th > Amendment (and of the other amendments). The use of the present tense > suggests that the clause is to limited to those alive at the time. > Additionally, what is meant by "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof"? > Does that exclude the children of foreign nationals? What does it do? Article XIV section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privelege or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. Basically, the "are" in "are citizens of the United States" is not bound to time, it's a transtemporal global usage; whoever meets the conditions gains the status, regardless of time. Children born in the United States are US citizens, regardless of their parentage. (For some this is worrisome, but for now it's in the Constitution, as amended, which I am sworn to defend against all enemies both foreign and domestic.) The "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" is generally considered to exclude persons under diplomatic exclusion, at the time this was mainly Native Americans who were (and are) considered as members of sovereign (if tributary) Nations with whom the Federal US had Treaty relationships which often yielded global Federal authority to the particular Tribal authority. But this amendment specifies that even the Natives whose overall authority surpassing State authority was Tribal rather than Federal, could not be deprived by the State of the equal protection of the laws. Note that the States are, under the Constitution, prohibited from making direct treaties with Sovereign Nations, which included Native Nations; interestingly, until about the time of he Second World War, Native nationals were not considered citizens nor, except insofar as they were violating Federal treaties, subject to any Federal law outside of the Federal criminal codes. People born on the reservation weren't, so far as I know, counted in the Federal Census, had no vote in the Federal elections, couldn't be drafted, etc. The use of "shall" isn't "auxiliary" in usage, it's "admonitory" in usage. It's not conditional on time, nor is it conditional at all. It specifically directs the States as to prohibited course of action or inaction. See also Amendment XV, IX and X, and see also Article I Section 10, specifically subsections 1 and 3. -- Be kind to your neighbors, even though they be transgenic chimerae. Whom thou'st vex'd waxeth wroth: Meow. <-----> http://earthops.net/klaatu/