From - Tue May 29 16:09:01 2001 Message-ID: <3B13B675.6A8BF936@clark.net> Date: Tue, 29 May 2001 10:47:17 -0400 From: Tiny Human Ferret Reply-To: klaatu@clark.net Organization: copyright 2001 all rights reserved -- non-UseNet transmission prohibited. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.2.17 i586) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.politics.immigration,soc.culture.usa,houston.general Subject: Re: ignant raceholes References: <3B12A07B.A51E5A98@hal-pc.org> <4db5hto4v59sidn92dn6qldcnhv6i2o93u@4ax.com> <4ABBA7A806FF47A7.3063F1D9F8438B62.0C18039D33D7F1D1@lp.airnews.net> <3B12ED91.7DB98030@clark.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 206.214.47.4 X-Trace: 29 May 2001 10:47:21 -0400, 206.214.47.4 Lines: 372 X-Authenticated-User: tjh22isp Path: vienna7.his.com!206.214.47.4 Xref: vienna7.his.com alt.politics.immigration:160821 soc.culture.usa:725917 houston.general:144258 Jeffrey E Salzberg wrote: > > In article <3B12ED91.7DB98030@clark.net>, klaatu@clark.net says... > > > > . . .Proving once again that illiteracy and bigotry go hand-in-hand. > > > > Care to try actually addressing the issues? > > If a person isn't well-read enough to have learned the basics of the > language, it's unlikely that he's well-read enough to understand > complicated political issues. . .so there's no point in addressing them. Nice dodge. The issues are massive cultural disruption in the US due to massive immigration, both legal and illegal, but primarily the illegal Invasion from Mexico and points south. I could recommend an excellent article from yesterday's _Washington Post_: http://washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A81989-2001May26.html From that article: ... Census figures show that the Latino population is roughly equal to that of African Americans and that Latinos will soon be the largest minority group in the country. Some schools already reflect that: [Arlington Virginia, a close-in suburb of Washington DC, high-school] Washington-Lee's student body is approximately 37 percent Latino, 35 percent white, 15 percent Asian and 14 percent black. Yet Latino involvement in the school remains marginal. Nationwide, the pattern is the same at schools with similar demographics. And it correlates with even more troubling signs of alienation: One in four Latinos drops out before graduation, and Latinos who quit are less likely than other groups to earn a general equivalency diploma later in life. ... Further, ... "The needs of the students are so diverse," Smith said. "We have different language groups, different immigrant groups - who have come here last week or who came here three generations ago - and we have African American students and we have white students. And somehow we want them all to feel a part of one school." The melting pot is nothing new; it has long been an integral part of America's definition of itself. For two centuries, the route to success for immigrants has been assimilation: learn English, blend in, become an American. But today's immigrant teenagers are a new chapter in an old American story, and Jeanne Osso, an English teacher, thinks that the assimilation model may not work for Washington-Lee's Latinos. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ She ponders this as she watches the students flood into school, carrying backpacks with "El Salvador" scrawled in ink across the back, rather than "Washington Redskins" or "Backstreet Boys." "Do they blend into the school and just assimilate?" she asks. "Or is the school changed by their culture?" Osso encourages her Latino students to vote for Latino names whenever there is a school election. "I know it sounds strange," she says, "but this way, I tell them, they can have someone with their background to represent them." ... Further, ... It's a sunny afternoon on an early-dismissal day - that sweet thing students call "half-day, half-play" - and Carla and Jimena are sitting at a table in El Pollo Rico, a Peruvian chicken restaurant on Washington Boulevard, with a half-dozen friends. They are guzzling Inca cola - a Peruvian drink that tastes like liquid bubble gum - and talking about Gaby and her bid for homecoming queen. They are not like Gaby, they say. They don't try as hard in class, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and they don't try to fit in as much with the white culture at school. They admire her for it, but they can't even imagine trying. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Jimena, an outspoken girl whose friends affectionately refer to her as their "loudmouth leader," counts off several reasons why Latino students don't participate more. Some of them work and have no time for yearbook or sports or prom committees. Some have just arrived from other countries and have trouble simply coping. Some are afraid of being made fun of by white students and white teachers. "It's like when some Spanish kids are smart but they are afraid to be in those higher classes," Carla chimes in. Overall, Jimena says, the students lack the self-esteem, the confidence, to assert themselves in anything besides the Latino clubs. One effort to change that is an annual day-long pep rally, held at George Mason University, for Latino middle and high school students. The students are excused from school, receive free lunches of Bolivian and Salvadoran food, and meet with Latino lawyers, activists and magazine writers. The speakers all have the same message: Don't let anyone get you down. Get involved. "If you choose to do nothing, to say nothing, then you are making a statement that Latinos don't count," Teresa Martinez, a lawyer in Arlington, tells the students. "But you are living in a wonderful time. You are the perfect group. You are teenagers and you are Latinos and you can be involved. "You may be the first Latino someone comes into contact with," she says. "They will think, 'This is what a Latino is like.' You don't just represent yourself, you represent a community. So get involved in your school." ... But, as the article says, they mostly don't. Further examination shows that while there are increasing associations between black and white American students -- in many cases, black and white American students in this area have very little "racial perceptions" and in fact tend to be somewhat "color blind", the cultural divide between the Latino students and the Anglophone students appears to be increasing as the American kids celebrate their American equalities, whatever their extraction, and the Latinos retain foreign allegiances and consider themselves culturally apart and appear to have an unfounded pride in perpetuating the stereotype of Latinos as clannish, withdrawn from non-Latino communities, and dedicated to academic underachievement. Further, regarding cultural changes, from a parallel article at http://washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A82259-2001May26?language=printer : ... Across the country at Berkeley High School in California, students, teachers and parents are studying immigrant students in the school's own Diversity Project. Since 1998, they have been looking at all aspects of school life: learning, technology, discipline and the students' tendency to socially segregate themselves by ethnicity. "This kind of thing is starting to be on everyone's mind," said Berkeley High teacher Dana Moran. "It's really like we have two schools. And the Latino students feel very marginalized. They are not very integrated into the rest of the school in terms of the social activities." Both projects are studying the effects of today's demographic shifts: * The country is seeing the largest wave of immigration in its history, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ with most immigrants coming from Asian, Caribbean, and Central and Latin American countries. * One of five students is an immigrant, and 80 percent of those are students of color. * In two generations, nearly half the population will be people of color and the children and grandchildren of today's immigrants. This is showing up even in places far from the country's borders: In Dodge City, Kan., for example, more than 30 percent of the children ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ enrolled in school are children of immigrants. All of these facts are felt, seen and heard in highly intimate ways through both of these studies. And both seek to answer the same questions educators wrestle with in Arlington. ... And from today's _Washington Post_ -- http://washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A85322-2001May27?language=printer : ... High school is the time when teenagers figure out who they are and then reinforce it by spending time with people who act and dress as they do, who listen to the same music. As America's schools become more diverse, this self-selection is a growing national concern. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "You see this social separation happening at many high schools," says Dana Moran, a high school teacher in Berkeley, Calif., who has been studying student life since 1998 as part of a diversity project with the University of California. "It's a part of high school life, and at diverse schools like our school, it can end up leaving Latino students outside of many social activities that are going on." Certainly, progress has been made. At suburban schools like Washington-Lee, multiculturalism is hip, and racial slurs are on their way out. But in the end, students from different backgrounds simply ignore each other. "It's unrealistic to say, 'Okay, kids, shake hands, be best friends,' " says Marsha Dale, who runs "A World of Difference" peer training workshops several times a year at Washington-Lee as part of a national program run by the Anti-Defamation League. "That's not human nature." On workshop days, throughout the school -- in the orchestra room, in the library -- students of all shades and accents and wearing all brands of jeans and sneakers form small groups and try to connect with each other. For one exercise, the students are asked to pick several words to describe themselves. Chris Jones, 17, says he may look black but he is half Latino. "I would totally describe myself as a minority," he says. When the immigrant students speak up, their countries of origin are the first things they mention. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ They are Bolivian, Salvadoran, Ethiopian. The white students start off with their interests -- ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ they love music, they're techies, they're dreamers and writers. One jokes that he is "your boring white guy." The immigrant students list their religion as their second description; ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ the white students are quiet on this subject. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "I know it's one of my biggest flaws, but I don't like religion," admits Nicole Koglin, a white student who is a diversity peer trainer. "So it's true -- it's hard for me to relate." Other white students say they are ill at ease when they see Hispanic classmates with "Jesus Loves El Salvador" on their backpacks ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and large crosses around their necks. For them, religion is a more private experience. "People say: 'You are so religious. Why?' " Gaby Florido says. "Sometimes people think, 'Don't you have anything better to do than go to church?' " Some white and Latino students also describe themselves as good dressers, and that brings up the issue of what "good" means to different groups in the halls of Washington-Lee. Jewelry, cars, hairstyles -- everything's different. The students toss the words "classy" and "trashy" around when referring to name-brand vs. discount stores, respectively. "It's like some kids are happy if they have clothes just to cover their bodies so they aren't naked," says Gaby. Chris poses a different question: Have you ever seen one group exclude another at Washington-Lee? Kyle Curd says it's not that simple -- it's just that it's too uncomfortable to roam outside your own circle of friends. "Me being white, I mean, it's not that I can walk into the Spanish crowd at lunch," Kyle says. "It would be harder for me to fit in." At one point, a white student in diversity training becomes frustrated when some Latino students start speaking Spanish to each other. "We are in America. Now speak English," she says. The students in the room call out, "Ouch!" That's what the instructions tell them to do when someone says something hurtful. ... Further in that article: ... In Lynn Russo's "regular" social studies class, the demographics are the opposite of those in the IB class. There are two or three white students, and the rest are minorities. Before Russo starts class, kids chatter in Spanish, Arabic and Urdu. Caroline Bell-Luehrs, who is white, says she likes being in the class because the teacher is really good and she does not want to "live in a bubble," like some of the IB students. "Some of those kids would die if you put them in a room with Spanish kids," says Caroline, shrugging her shoulders. "Sometimes you feel that those kids are in their own school." Sitting in her office, where red Persian-style rugs make the room seem less institutional, IB program coordinator Marilyn Leeb says she is aware of that criticism but that she works hard to make all classes more diverse. She says she allows students of all levels to sample the program, letting them take one, two or three IB classes. And she has been encouraging Latino students to take advanced science classes and an advanced Spanish class for fluent speakers. "It's challenging and hard for all of these reasons," Leeb says. "But I think it's the right thing to do -- to really try and hope things change." Moving more Latinos into advanced classes is an important goal of the principal's and the superintendent's. Still, they realize how complex it can be. ... Okay, Jeff -- here are some issues. Even in school, the one place you'd think that assimilation would happen most rapidly, it mostly isn't happening. The "spanish" kids -- that's what we call them locally, since there are far too many nationalities but they all speak Spanish natively and "hispanophones" is too cumbersome a term -- are very nationalistic... to a foreign country that most of them claim they hope will never be their permanent home. They're also generally extremely religious and in-your-face about it, something that is generally frowned-upon in the US by people who have been here for some generations. There appear to be very mixed perceptions here, extreme variances in the way that the naive culture and the newcomers see each other and themselves. For instance, the spanish seem to have the self-perception that they are shy and sensitive, whereas most Americans seem to perceive the spanish as extremely arrogant, outspoken, demanding, insular, and grabby, with extreme "boundary issues". How do the spanish perceive the whites? Well, the whites don't know, because the spanish only ever discuss how they feel about whites in Spanish, and apparently only amongst themselves, at least insofar as the _Washington Post_ reports it. I _suspect_ that the spanish probably see the whites as being standoffish, insular, weak and divided and with no real group identity, faithless infidels with too much money, wasting time on stupid dreams instead of planning for their families. Such cultural miscomprehensions are bound to cause frictions. Will the anglophones find themselves forced by necessity into proclaiming some fictitious group identity other than the clearly-unacceptable "American" identity? I call it unacceptable because, clearly, it's unacceptable to the spanish, or _they_ would be adopting that identity. Will the anglophones, who clearly aren't much concerned with families, be divided and conquered while failing to reproduce? It's starting to look that way. Anglophones are wasting their lives on foolish things like studying biology and chemistry and even sociology. The spanish are struggling to speak English, it seems, in between the times spent hanging out only with other spanish, speaking only Spanish. They apparently don't have time to study stupid things like the sciences or mathematics. That stuff, it seems, is for the whites, according to most of the "spanish" students, even in the face of exhortations to excel delivered by successful graduate latinos who exemplify success in the American Dream. But, after all, it's an American Dream, not a spanish one. What will become of America when the majority of the students are unconcerned with the arts and the sciences? To whom shall we pass the torch? It seems that when our leg of the relay is done, there won't be anyone there to take up the burden, they're not even present at the race, much less participating. So, Jeff, you won't discuss the issues unless it's with someone who's literate and has some education and some grasp of the issues? Well, then. Discuss the issues with _me_. --klaatu, be kind to your neighbors, even though they be transgenic chimera or entirely unconcerned with perpetuating a meaningful civilization of any importantance whatsoever -- Non-UseNet re-transmission of this article is a willful violation of US Copyright Law and the Berne Convention. Statutory damages are $250,000.00 Whom thou'st vex'd waxeth wroth: Meow. <-----> http://earthops.net/klaatu/