From - Fri Jul 5 15:13:22 2002 Message-ID: <3D24D842.58E34E28@earthops.net> Date: Thu, 04 Jul 2002 23:20:34 +0000 From: Tiny Human Ferret Organization: copyright 2002 all rights reserved -- non-UseNet transmission prohibited. X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (X11; U; Linux 2.0.38 i386) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 Newsgroups: alt.politics,alt.politics.democrats.d,alt.politics.immigration,alt.politics.libertarian,alt.politics.reform Subject: Re: Sustainable population a key concern for state References: <5rWR8.1$_G1.666@news.uswest.net> <3d188bc3$0$21002$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au> <3D19DB27.7A89F629@earthops.net> <73ouhu8l21o57as04qq4lpicimq55s31g5@4ax.com> <3D1F9DD5.F6E988F@earthops.net> <4fp1iu4ktq5auu78ol9vfquav582hgk294@4ax.com> <3D20E91D.A88FA942@bellsouth.net> <9hc2iugqfaa3p9s0kic45h2ke5jfv7vfc3@4ax.com> <3d213bcc_8@nopics.sjc> <3D21B26C.892C9E64@earthops.net> <0qk7iu45bcnmbj1smr8ndu308352lrpcfh@4ax.com> <3D243E38.C87F2B96@earthops.net> <3D248C99.3D6E9595@aha.com> <3D24B914.3050608@beets.crib.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit NNTP-Posting-Host: 65.205.1.226 X-Trace: vienna7.his.com 1025824834 65.205.1.226 (4 Jul 2002 19:20:34 -0400) Lines: 141 X-Authenticated-User: tjh22isp Path: vienna7.his.com Xref: vienna7.his.com alt.politics:854581 alt.politics.democrats.d:69036 alt.politics.immigration:18280 alt.politics.libertarian:18428 alt.politics.reform:3116 WhoMe? wrote: > > Redneck wrote: > > >Ferret, > > I hope you realize you can't argue with these people any less than you > >could argue with a Muslim that Allah will not deliver unto them the whole world > >through jihad. This blind faith in technology is as strong as any religion. > >To people like this it represents man's conquest of the universe, which of > >course elevates mankind to god status. It is important to speak out so others > >stop and think, but some of these people are hopeless. > > > > > I hope the rest of you realize you can't argue with these gloom and doom > types any more than the Muslims either. They have some blind (and dumb) > faith in the power of world socialism and the gradual reduction in > standards of living of most to make sure that everyone lives equally > miserably. This will happen anyway, especially if you bury your head in the sand with respect to the dangers of global population explosion combining with global resource depletion! First: _I_ am not "gloom and doom" though I am one very gothic person. I believe that gloom-and-doom are not inevitable except for idiots, whether they're idiots naturally or due to willful inability to see beyond their own ideology, whatever that ideology might be. Secondly: I am both Conservative, and a Conservationist. Think of me as a redneck who really likes to fish for Trout. I do not despise education, nor do I despise civilization, industry, nor urban life. However, I am _adamant_ about being able to fish for Trout in a flourishing natural environment. Furthermore, I am _adamant_ that everyone should have ample opportunities to fish for Trout, should they so choose, and I am further adamant that there should be enough Trout for everyone. About Trout: Trout are an "indicator species". They need shaded areas in cool stream which maintain a relatively constant temperature of not much over 78 degrees-F. Trout also need exceptionally clean water; they are thus an indicator of a healthy stream ecosystem, which generally presupposes a healthy ecosystem surrounding the stream. Thus, the more Trout there are, the greater the extend and expanse of healthy ecosystem. If you can go Tourt-Fishing almost anyplace you go, that means you live in a very healthy land. Don't you think your kids, and grandkids -- and in fact all of posterity -- deserve Trout? Of course you do! Otherwise what kind of pathetic animal are you. > They ignore the history of technological advances to > improve the human condition and create new resources where none existed > or were thought to exist before. I certainly do not! I am a student of the history of science, among other things. > They also ignore the fact that > unless humanity strives for such improvements, it is doomed to > stagnation and decay. Such whacknuts seem to be comfortable with a > future society where people live in what would be considered second > world squalor now, barely above subsistence levels, with little or no > new technology to create new resources other than conservation related > ones. You, sir, appear to be either an idiot of the first order, else -- more likely since this is UseNet -- you are a third-rate demagogue, not very capable of understanding another's stated positions, and apparently more interested in talking about people who aren't even in the discussion, than you're interested in debating the opponent at hand... one who could be an excellent ally if you stopped putting words in my mouth and tarring me with another's brush. I believe that with a stable population -- with Zero Population Growth, globally -- we can lessen competition for extant resources. We can refine existing economies and continue to do research, development, and deployment __within a stable system__ rather than within a system which is in a chaotic flux due to emerging shortages and emergent thrashings of systems due to "pile-ups" of economic turbulence in resource flows, all of which are symptomatic of runaway growth in totally unsustainable modes. > This is a symptom of a larger mind virus, one that is at best > deluded and ignorant and at worst anti-life and pro-suffering. What is deluded, ignorant, anti-life and pro-suffering about wanting to maintain the population at a very high _sustainable_ level of technology, and doing away with unsupportable and unsustainable "growth for growth's sake" growth? > Like > Luddites with their wooden shoes to stop mechanization, they spew forth > dogma of reduction and doublespeak ("less is more", etc.) in hopes of > ensuring a future of lowered expectations and life value as long as it > is equally shared by all. This is not at all what I've been proposing. However, you don't appear to be listening to what I'm proposing. I propose, among other things, an immediate lockdown of the borders and ports to prevent illegal entries to the US, and a decrease in the levels of legal immigration. The sole goal is to prevent any more population growth within the US, so as to provide an island of prosperity and sanity from which the rest of the world can be nourished and perhaps even rescued. But right now, "the lifeboat is full" and as more people climb aboard, we are risking collapse, a capsizing of the lifeboat, as it were. Back in the 1970s, the US-born population of the US elected to begin reducing their reproductive rate. As regards the US-born, we achieved Zero Population Growth in about 1988, and began a planned and orderly population-decline which first became noticable about 1992. However, in the last decade, the population of the US grew by an unprecedented 15 percent. See http://www.census.gov/ for hard figures. _ALL_ of US population growth is due to immigration, both legal and illegal. > It is important to speak out so others > stop and think, but some of these people are hopeless. > > Technology is a tool, no more no less. And it has its limitations. YOu might want to consider two things: 1, the Law of Diminishing Returns, and 2, the fact that the more complex a system, the more dependent it is, the more fragile, the more disruptable. > We choose to use it for the > betterment of all, including the enrichment of the productive along the > way. Throw away the tools and we are back to square one, but with not > enough food or infrastructure to keep even 100 million alive on this > planet. Activate the few neurons you may have...we'll wait. Your argument is rife with presuppositions, and when you apply them to your debates with me, amount to nothing more than a stack of arguments to a strawman. Ditch the strawman arguments and argue my points on their merits, stop arguing to some presuppositions which you appear to have of me, which are demonstrably inapplicable to the present debate. -- Be kind to your neighbors, even though they be transgenic chimerae. Whom thou'st vex'd waxeth wroth: Meow. <-----> http://earthops.net/klaatu/